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andthatstheword2009-11-29 01:54 pm
erinptah) wrote in andthatstheword2009-11-29 01:54 pm
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Needs Meta
I love reading other people's author's notes/director's commentary, so I figure there's probably someone out there who'll be interested in this.
It's an AIM conversation in which![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sarcasticsra demanded my Thoughts on the two Jon-"Stephen" D/s relationships that lead into Needs Met. Specifically, on c!Stephen being an irresponsible sub, and l!Stephen being a too-responsible Dom.
At the end is a short follow-up, which should be of particular interest to everyone still feeling capslocky towards the Jons.
(Might be mildly spoilery at this point, but only in a vague way.)
sarcasticsra
Anyway! You said you had Thoughts. Share them!
sailorptah
Awright. *flexes fingers*
So here's the thing. Embedded in this whole crossover is a critique of something that's been bothering me about the Needverse for a while - specifically, Stephen.
sarcasticsra
Okay.
sailorptah
We know he has chronic responsibility issues, which are all tied up with his subbiness, but even as a sub he should be able to articulate and take responsibility for his needs and desires. He got really lucky to end up with Jon, who is unlikely to push him too far and sensitive enough to probably notice if it happens, but on the other hand all of this means that Stephen gets to put off the issue: he still probably wouldn't safeword even if it became necessary, and he doesn't have much incentive to develop the skill.
sarcasticsra
Right.
sailorptah
Meanwhile, Jon is doing a splendid job of dealing with and nurturing Stephen's needs without a whole lot of guidance, but he's in danger of getting so confident in his skills - and so used to having sole authority over Stephen's desires - that he seriously goes over the line without stopping to check. Which is precisely what happens here.
On the flip side of it, in the Neededverse, l!Stephen has a corresponding problem. He's very into talking and making sure his interests and Jon's limits don't go crashing together, but he has an inflated sense of responsibility, which leads to him having a hard time standing up for his own needs outside of bed, in favor of taking care of other people.
This has a lot of good points. He's very laid-back, very chill, not easily offended. But when he's uncomfortable or hurt, he goes overboard trying not to make other people feel responsible for that. And he's lucky too, in that his Jon is sensitive to this, and makes the effort not to take advantage of him.
But, again, this Jon has ended up with a sense that he can do pretty much anything, especially sexually, and his Stephen will be openminded and tolerant about it. (It doesn't help that Stephen has been known to pretty much literally say this.)
This doesn't absolve the Jons of responsibility, of course. It just explains why neither of their brains set off certain warning flags.
sarcasticsra
Makes sense.
sailorptah
Eeeexcellent.
...and I don't know how much more I should say, because that brings us up to the current point in the story, and the rest of it will be about the way these things get drawn out and resolved.
But yes. Those are the Thoughts, in a nutshell.
sarcasticsra
I haven't touched too deeply on these issues in the Needverse, because tbh, I started that series on a whim and it evolved into something fun to write every so often, so I've kind of been shy about getting too serious with it. But I've thought about it, and part of it is that neither Stephen nor Jon actually have the first clue about BDSM culture or the community. Jon because he's more or less vanilla. Stephen because he doesn't think about it that deeply--he just wants to be shoved aorund. So the safeword thing, and the importance of it, kind of fall by the wayside. Now, they're lucky, because Jon's not going to push things very far mostly because he's Jon, but I also think a tiny part of him doesn't completely trust Stephen. He doesn't like to admit it because it makes him feel like an ass, since Stephen obviously trusts him, and part of him thinks he's being paranoid, but it's there. That's their biggest obstacle in the 'verse. Writing about it more deeply would be fun for me, because I am a kinky person, but it would be definite mood whiplash, you know? And that's not fair to people who enjoy the 'verse for what it currently is.
sailorptah
Hmmm. See, me, I am very much of the opinion that a writer doesn't owe the readers anything. Besides, being "fair" to the people who enjoy the 'verse as it is involves being "unfair" to the people who enjoy it but would love to see something deeper and are being denied, right?
If you've got the ideas and want to write them, go for it. Just put a "this is not your average Needverse story" tipoff at the beginning, and let people decide for themselves whether to read on.
sarcasticsra
That's the thing. I'm not sure if I do. On the one hand, I like thinking about these things. But...I also like not thinking about these things, you know? I've written plenty of serious Jon/"Stephen" fics. It's kind of nice to have something purely lighthearted.
sailorptah
Yeah, I can definitely see that.
You could always make it AU, or write the ideas without connecting them to Needverse continuity at all, or...something.
sarcasticsra
That's true.
sailorptah
Or just leave it to this comic to address the issue :P
I'm really looking forward to finding out what people think about how it handles it.
(Mmm, complicated four-way emotional quandaries. Crunchy!)
sarcasticsra
Hahaha, yes indeed.
I am kind of mind-boggled the Jons didn't consider the consent issues. They are usually smarter than that.
sailorptah
Insofar as they considered them, Dom!Jon was basically running on the assumption "Stephen has always enjoyed everything I've set up before, so why not?" While sub!Jon was going with "Stephen has never seriously objected to anything I've done before, so why not?"
But, yeah, they've gotten way too far into a bad way of thinking, and are about to be yanked back.
sarcasticsra
Which is good. They need to be.
A week or so later:
sarcasticsra
Auuuugh, okay.
The more I think about this comic, the harder it gets for me to believe that the Jons would be this stupid.
A momentary lapse of judgment I get. They're not perfect. But to not even, for a second, consider the consent implications involved? Your reasons make sense to me. But I can't get over the idea that for two people used to making sure their partners are okay with everything happening in their relationships, they wouldn't think about it at all. I don't know. Maybe it's because according to my own principles, I would never be able to forgive something like this, so the relationship would be over, and I don't want that to happen to the Jons and the Stephens.
IDK. Thoughts?
sailorptah
Thoughts:
Canonically, c!Stephen has fired a gun into his audience, ordered his staff members to kill each other, and subjected a delivery guy to two years' worth of captivity and torture. If you apply real-world standards too strictly, he's probably looking at life without parole by this point.
We're accustomed to Jon being the straight man in the duo, but it makes sense to give him similar moments of "wow, if this were the real world you would be prosecuted for that" once in a while. Take his betrayal of Stephen with the same grain of salt that you took Stephen's attempt to take out a hit on him.
Does that help?
sarcasticsra
...actually, yes. That helps a lot. Huh. I didn't even think about it that way. Okay, this is much easier to swallow now. TY, TY.
sailorptah
Oh, excellent.
*tacks to the end of meta post*
It's an AIM conversation in which
sarcasticsra demanded my Thoughts on the two Jon-"Stephen" D/s relationships that lead into Needs Met. Specifically, on c!Stephen being an irresponsible sub, and l!Stephen being a too-responsible Dom.At the end is a short follow-up, which should be of particular interest to everyone still feeling capslocky towards the Jons.
(Might be mildly spoilery at this point, but only in a vague way.)
sarcasticsraAnyway! You said you had Thoughts. Share them!
sailorptahAwright. *flexes fingers*
So here's the thing. Embedded in this whole crossover is a critique of something that's been bothering me about the Needverse for a while - specifically, Stephen.
sarcasticsraOkay.
sailorptahWe know he has chronic responsibility issues, which are all tied up with his subbiness, but even as a sub he should be able to articulate and take responsibility for his needs and desires. He got really lucky to end up with Jon, who is unlikely to push him too far and sensitive enough to probably notice if it happens, but on the other hand all of this means that Stephen gets to put off the issue: he still probably wouldn't safeword even if it became necessary, and he doesn't have much incentive to develop the skill.
sarcasticsraRight.
sailorptahMeanwhile, Jon is doing a splendid job of dealing with and nurturing Stephen's needs without a whole lot of guidance, but he's in danger of getting so confident in his skills - and so used to having sole authority over Stephen's desires - that he seriously goes over the line without stopping to check. Which is precisely what happens here.
On the flip side of it, in the Neededverse, l!Stephen has a corresponding problem. He's very into talking and making sure his interests and Jon's limits don't go crashing together, but he has an inflated sense of responsibility, which leads to him having a hard time standing up for his own needs outside of bed, in favor of taking care of other people.
This has a lot of good points. He's very laid-back, very chill, not easily offended. But when he's uncomfortable or hurt, he goes overboard trying not to make other people feel responsible for that. And he's lucky too, in that his Jon is sensitive to this, and makes the effort not to take advantage of him.
But, again, this Jon has ended up with a sense that he can do pretty much anything, especially sexually, and his Stephen will be openminded and tolerant about it. (It doesn't help that Stephen has been known to pretty much literally say this.)
This doesn't absolve the Jons of responsibility, of course. It just explains why neither of their brains set off certain warning flags.
sarcasticsraMakes sense.
sailorptahEeeexcellent.
...and I don't know how much more I should say, because that brings us up to the current point in the story, and the rest of it will be about the way these things get drawn out and resolved.
But yes. Those are the Thoughts, in a nutshell.
sarcasticsraI haven't touched too deeply on these issues in the Needverse, because tbh, I started that series on a whim and it evolved into something fun to write every so often, so I've kind of been shy about getting too serious with it. But I've thought about it, and part of it is that neither Stephen nor Jon actually have the first clue about BDSM culture or the community. Jon because he's more or less vanilla. Stephen because he doesn't think about it that deeply--he just wants to be shoved aorund. So the safeword thing, and the importance of it, kind of fall by the wayside. Now, they're lucky, because Jon's not going to push things very far mostly because he's Jon, but I also think a tiny part of him doesn't completely trust Stephen. He doesn't like to admit it because it makes him feel like an ass, since Stephen obviously trusts him, and part of him thinks he's being paranoid, but it's there. That's their biggest obstacle in the 'verse. Writing about it more deeply would be fun for me, because I am a kinky person, but it would be definite mood whiplash, you know? And that's not fair to people who enjoy the 'verse for what it currently is.
sailorptahHmmm. See, me, I am very much of the opinion that a writer doesn't owe the readers anything. Besides, being "fair" to the people who enjoy the 'verse as it is involves being "unfair" to the people who enjoy it but would love to see something deeper and are being denied, right?
If you've got the ideas and want to write them, go for it. Just put a "this is not your average Needverse story" tipoff at the beginning, and let people decide for themselves whether to read on.
sarcasticsraThat's the thing. I'm not sure if I do. On the one hand, I like thinking about these things. But...I also like not thinking about these things, you know? I've written plenty of serious Jon/"Stephen" fics. It's kind of nice to have something purely lighthearted.
sailorptahYeah, I can definitely see that.
You could always make it AU, or write the ideas without connecting them to Needverse continuity at all, or...something.
sarcasticsraThat's true.
sailorptahOr just leave it to this comic to address the issue :P
I'm really looking forward to finding out what people think about how it handles it.
(Mmm, complicated four-way emotional quandaries. Crunchy!)
sarcasticsraHahaha, yes indeed.
I am kind of mind-boggled the Jons didn't consider the consent issues. They are usually smarter than that.
sailorptahInsofar as they considered them, Dom!Jon was basically running on the assumption "Stephen has always enjoyed everything I've set up before, so why not?" While sub!Jon was going with "Stephen has never seriously objected to anything I've done before, so why not?"
But, yeah, they've gotten way too far into a bad way of thinking, and are about to be yanked back.
sarcasticsraWhich is good. They need to be.
A week or so later:
sarcasticsraAuuuugh, okay.
The more I think about this comic, the harder it gets for me to believe that the Jons would be this stupid.
A momentary lapse of judgment I get. They're not perfect. But to not even, for a second, consider the consent implications involved? Your reasons make sense to me. But I can't get over the idea that for two people used to making sure their partners are okay with everything happening in their relationships, they wouldn't think about it at all. I don't know. Maybe it's because according to my own principles, I would never be able to forgive something like this, so the relationship would be over, and I don't want that to happen to the Jons and the Stephens.
IDK. Thoughts?
sailorptahThoughts:
Canonically, c!Stephen has fired a gun into his audience, ordered his staff members to kill each other, and subjected a delivery guy to two years' worth of captivity and torture. If you apply real-world standards too strictly, he's probably looking at life without parole by this point.
We're accustomed to Jon being the straight man in the duo, but it makes sense to give him similar moments of "wow, if this were the real world you would be prosecuted for that" once in a while. Take his betrayal of Stephen with the same grain of salt that you took Stephen's attempt to take out a hit on him.
Does that help?
sarcasticsra...actually, yes. That helps a lot. Huh. I didn't even think about it that way. Okay, this is much easier to swallow now. TY, TY.
sailorptahOh, excellent.
*tacks to the end of meta post*
no subject
I know the reason I feel extra capslocky towards the Jons is the fact that I'm so used to Jon playing the part of The Voice of Reason, so when that trend is broken it sort of lights a fire cracker off in the brain. BUT! Thinking that way leads to a) putting pressure on the Jons to never be wrong and b) thinking the Stephens are incapable of responsibility, which isn't fair, as they're all human. (Not that the wrong the Jons committed in this situation is fine, or that the Stephens are in any way responsible for them making a stupid stupid stupid decision, of course.)
(There are my only thoughts, as your strip is my only exposure to this Needsverse.)
no subject
And, yeah, you've got the imbalance down pat. The Jons need (heh) to be able to rely on their Stephens to own their own desires - to, say, use their own safewords rather than need a Jon to say one for them.
(Take a look at the Needverse some time. It's very sweet.)
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/random
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...oddly enough, imagining the c!Stephen/BriWi situation you've described is now making me twitchy. I have no idea which wire of mine it's tripping, but eurgh.
/even more random
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(I mean, I kinda doubt that's what you were going for, but in my head it's way too close for comfort.)
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(And it may have just broken my idea block in the abusive!dom story, so thank you for that, inadvertent though it was :P)
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...and if I can't pull it off, it'll turn into a blurry mess. So, er, wish me luck?
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(Rest assured, I will let you know if it does turn into a blurry mess. =P)
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